- Ce sujet contient 125 réponses, 35 participants et a été mis à jour pour la dernière fois par
, le il y a 8 années et 10 mois.
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Sa démarche ressemble plus à de l’arrogance qu’à autre chose.
C’est du buzz.
Je ne trouve pas cela très noble.- gilou2511 a écrit:
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- Spoiler:
Damster est ultra calé et a un oeil bien plus acéré que le mien
En plus de la connaissance, il a une vraie compréhension des choses, et ça fait la différence !
Et je suis d’accord, c’est dommage que Gerald ne souhaite pas discuter et argumenter…
Pour l’expertise Seiko, peut-être le responsable des archives du musée…
Les vrais spécialistes sont des amateurs ou des vendeurs pro, mais ils sont toujours discrets et jamais auto-proclamés- Arnaud.A a écrit:
- c’est dommage que Gerald ne souhaite pas discuter et argumenter…
À mon avis il est déjà reparti à fourguer sa marchandise. Ce qui se dit ici ne doit plus beaucoup l’intéresser.
- Arnaud.A a écrit:
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Damster est ultra calé et a un oeil bien plus acéré que le mien
En plus de la connaissance, il a une vraie compréhension des choses, et ça fait la différence !
Et je suis d’accord, c’est dommage que Gerald ne souhaite pas discuter et argumenter…
Pour l’expertise Seiko, peut-être le responsable des archives du musée…
Les vrais spécialistes sont des amateurs ou des vendeurs pro, mais ils sont toujours discrets et jamais auto-proclamés
Le Monsieur Gerald est passé à autre chose . Je regrette que le dernier échange , avec toi Arnaud , eut été par mails . j’aurai bien aimé que la conversation rebondisse pour que l’on comprenne le fonctionnement de ce collectionneur – vendeur . Je pense que l’on aurait pu apprendre beaucoup de choses . En tout cas il fait ce qu’il veut de sa collection , si ça l’amuse de la vendre libre à lui … Mais je ne serais pas client je pense ….
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C’est dans son coeur qu’il faut construire la paix: DALAI LAMAJe doute qu’après avoir vu le niveau de connaissance de nos gourous seiko qu’il désire poursuivre. Si ce post mettais en lumière d’autres incohérences (en anglais de surcroît) pour peu qu’un prospect cherche un peu il viendrait inévitablement ici lire ce fil plutôt fâcheux pour l’intéressé.
Au delà de mon respect pour nos seikophiles francophones qui m’impressionnent c’est la cote que ces seiko vintage prennent qui me
.Cette marque commence à dévoiler tout ses charmes.
Tout ça à cause d’un photographe du dimanche pas capable de régler correctement son éclairage, sa balance des blancs et qui transforme le bleu foncé en noir….
(oh meyrde c’est moi !!!
)Edit : et sinon je viens de lire les dernières explications de notre ami qui décide de vendre sa collection et je trouve qu’il a parfaitement raison.
Il a décidé de rentabiliser ce qui était initialement une passion et bien c’est compréhensible et même justifié.
Je pense que de très nombreuses personnes, au cours de ses dernières années, ont utilisés ses connaissances et si maintenant il arrive à en tirer quelques revenus et bien qu’il en profite.
Par rapport aux service rendus, cela ne me choque absolument pas.PS : même si elles sont mal post-traitées, mes photos sont libres de droits.
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C’est dingue cette habitude des gens à ne vouloir envisager les choses qu’à travers un prisme unique : le leur, le seul valable !
PascalHello again.
As I explained to Arnaud by email I didn’t think it was being appreciated here that I was responding in English. However, since several of you are asking me to continue (and Arnaud is continuing to totally misrepresent me), here I am.
But first things first.
Arnaud – as per my email to you, remove my copyrighted images from your posts immediately. You have absolutely no right whatsoever to rehost my images.
Damster – there are two things that need to be addressed here. Firstly, the existence, or otherwise, of any vintage Grand Seiko 452x-7000’s being manufactured with black dials; and secondly, your watch specifically.
« And, therefore, reassembled by your experience on 43999 and 5722, you have deduced that all the black dials of 4520-7000 and 4522-7000 were fake or redone. »
(again – I am reliant on Google Translate here. If the nuance of what you said is not correctly translated, then forgive me)…
The existence of the 57GS examples with redone black dials does not in any way have any bearing on the fact that Seiko did not produce 452x-7000 watches with black dials. You are falsely accusing me of basing my statement that there are no black dial 452x-7000’s purely on my knowledge/experience with the 57’s. That simply is not the case.
The statement that they did not make any is based on a number of factors.
1. I have examined every single example of 452x-7000’s that has been sold on Yahoo Auctions in Japan in the last 3 years, and many that have been sold directly through dealers’ websites.
2. I have examined every single Seiko catalogue and Seiko Sales newsletter that includes this reference. They first appear in the 1969 V2 catalogue, and are then featured in every catalogue up to and including 1971 V2.
3. I have spoken directly with several Japanese dealers who have been dealing in vintage Grand Seiko for decades specifically regarding the legitimate existence – or otherwise – of the black dial variant of this watch.So when you write on the forum « Genuine black dials 4520-7000 do exist btw », I am 100% confident in stating that they do not. Seiko never made them.
You then bring your specific example into the debate, and post images of what looks like a black dial 452x-7000 proudly displayed with a box and certificate from the 56GS series.
Two things here. One – I know for a fact based on all the research that I have done that Seiko didn’t make any. Two – you show a watch that is falsely represented as being a full set.
So I dismiss it out of hand without even a second look. Which was on reflection unfair on you, and I apologise for that.
So lets look at your watch a little more closely, and ask –
Is it really possible that you own the only example of a black dial 4520-7000 ever to surface?
Is it really possible that despite researching every publicly shared document from Seiko with no evidence of a black dial version being produced; despite examining hundreds of examples of 452x-7000’s being sold with no evidence of a genuine black dial ever existing; and despite Japanese dealers who have probably more than 5 decades of experience between them stating categorically that the watch doesn’t exist – is it possible that you have one?Occam’s razor says it is not.
The crucial thing here is that it is not for me to prove a negative – something that Arnaud privately admitted was the case, and yet still is insisting it is my job to do.
YOU have to prove – despite all the evidence and knowledge to the contrary – that Seiko produced this reference with a black dial. The fact that you own a watch that appears to have a black dial does not mean they actually made the watch with a black dial.
I note with interest that Arnaud states « [your watch] been appraised by a very reputed Tokyoite seller » (I’ll come back to the rest of what Arnaud states in that post in a moment).
I’m very intrigued about that. Which « very reputed » Tokyoite seller was it who sold you this watch with a box and papers from a 56GS series? I don’t blame you for not realising this – after all, we all make mistakes – and one of the primary purposes of my new site is to educate people so that they don’t make mistakes like this in the future. In time, I hope to be adding articles that provide full details of all the different boxes and paperwork that was used for the vintage GS.
But I’d be really interested to know which reputable dealer in Tokyo is putting together dodgy full-sets. If you are not comfortable sharing that information publicly, please do feel free to share it with me privately and I will be happy to take it up directly with them. Maybe he didn’t realise the box and papers didn’t match the watch? Maybe it was an honest mistake on his part? For what it’s worth, I know of one supposedly « very reputable » Tokyoite seller who is anything but.
Back to the watch.
In case I haven’t made the point clearly by now – this watch was not made with a black dial.
BUT!
We know for an absolute fact that the BLUE dial watches that Seiko made can lose their saturation over time, and that it depends very much on how you photograph them as to whether you actually capture the blue. We see this not just in the 452x-7000’s, but also in the 6145-8050’s and the 6146-8050’s. Depending on how you the watch is lit and the angle of the light on the watch etc etc, they can appear to be dark grey or black. Heck – many of the photos of even the 4580-7000 VFA make its dial look black, but again – it isn’t, it’s blue.
Go take a look on my website at the 4522-7000 blue dial I have for sale. Many, many people would describe that as being black. But it isn’t. Another one – check out the 6146-8050 with the blue dial. The « hero » shot is lit with polarized light – it positively shines blue. Now look at the face-on shot where it is in the case-holder. Looks black, doesn’t it.
You could trawl through the auction history of many of these watches if you were so inclined. You’d be surprised how many times a seller states « the dial is actually a dark blue, although it looks black in the photos », or words to that effect.
Your watch is a blue dial 4520-7000. Catalogue reference 45GSC 021. The 021 is the colour code for the dark blue dial. It’s a shame you don’t have the « proper » full set for this watch, because the price tag that would have been wrapped around the strap may well have had that full code on it.
Is the dial on your watch a genuine Sieko dial? Having spent more time examining it – and again, I apologise for dismissing it out of hand based on your claim Seiko made black dial watches and the presentation of the watch as a full set with the wrong box and papers – yes. I believe it is genuine.
Has the dial lost a lot of its saturation over the course of its life? Clearly.
Is it possible that you didn’t photograph it and process the file correctly to show some of the blue colour? Possibly. Again – I refer you back to my photographs of my 4522 that « look » black, but I can prove are actually blue by showing you the histogram of the dial.Did Seiko ever originally manufacture this watch with a black dial? No.
Now – let’s go speak to the guy who sold you this and see what he says. Feel free to contact me privately if you’re not prepared to name them in public.
Ok. Moving on to clear up a few other comments that have been made.
Arnaud
This is getting pretty tiresome.
« I think he just bad to have bought a fake black 4520 he had to sell since »
Is that a correct translation? Are you saying I’ve sold the watch (actually, a 4522-7000, not a 4520-7000)? Because that would be libel.
If anyone wants to see the full email exchange between myself and Arnaud, more than happy to forward it on to them.
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Tiresome indeed
I never asked you to prove the black dials don’t exist, I asked you for you sources, which you didn’t want to give me. I also asked you to tell me if there was anything wrong with Damster’s watch, except for the color. You didn’t want to answer before now.
Concerning your badly redone 4522-7000 (too bad you don’t want to share the images here for eveyone to learn from your mistakes, as you said we all do mistakes), I have no clue if you kept it or not, that was just an assumption and it’s none of my businessBon Arnaud, je sais que tu aimes les gifs (et je n’ai pas grand chose à apporter au débat pour être franc
)En voici un qui résume ce sujet
« Arnaud – as per my email to you, remove my copyrighted images from your posts immediately. You have absolutely no right whatsoever to rehost my images. »
Ça se corse…
Libel… Copyrighted images… Seriously? Do your ankles hurt?
Gerald I don’t think that the tone of your interventions is welcome here.
I thought you were done arguing?
If so then… You can leave the topic. Thank you.
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