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, le il y a 8 années et 10 mois.
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Messages
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- Arnaud.A a écrit:
- Il suffisait de dire ça dès le début et tout malentendu aurait été évité.
Ca n’enlève évidemment rien aux heures de recherche qu’il a fait et aux informations qu’il partage sur le sujet.
Ou il suffisait de demander, au lieu de spéculer sur ses motivations en tournant autour du pot.
Et il n’est pas qu’un pro, on, c’est aussi un passionné. Qui achète, qui vend, et qui peut bien faire ce qu’il veut d’ailleurs, non?Ok Thegrandseikoguy, I understand your point of view. And thanks for the answer.
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Seiko & Seiko & Seiko.Si vous n’y voyez que ça, vous êtes de mauvaise foi.
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Seiko & Seiko & Seiko.- Faz a écrit:
- It’s a blueck dial
(J’oubliais qu’on est dans un thread international…)
Gerald: We like the argued points of view even opposite and even in English.
You’re welcome.
Yes ! Gérald , don’t be selfish , share your knowledge with us please !! Thank you !! But i prefer to be honest , may be i ‘ll buy nothing ….
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C’est dans son coeur qu’il faut construire la paix: DALAI LAMABonsoir à tous,
Tout d’abord je tiens à signaler que de mon côté, je n’ai qu’une seule Grand Seiko, je n’ai rien à vendre ni aucune réputation à défendre.
Mais j’aime bien apprendre
En page 2 j’ai même essayé de donner à Gérald du contexte sur les réactions des gens, et répondais à un point de son blog :
- watchdxb a écrit:
- I’ll be talking more about vintage Grand Seikos with black dials in tomorrow’s “On the block” post. […]. For the 4520 and 4522, the jury is arguably still deliberating.
Donc c’était pour aider à la base
voilà pour le côté « bitching » de la force…
Et sur ce point, Gérald, tu n’as jamais statué publiquement (du moins sur ton blog) avant de rendre un avis pour le moins tranché et sans explication, ici même.- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- Is the dial on your watch a genuine Sieko dial? Having spent more time examining it – and again, I apologise for dismissing it out of hand based on your claim Seiko made black dial watches and the presentation of the watch as a full set with the wrong box and papers – yes. I believe it is genuine.
Merci, tu admettras qu’un « expert » qui revient sur son avis, c’est assez rare et directement décrédibilisant.
D’ailleurs je ne parlais pas de la fabrication des cadrans mais disais que les 4520-7000 authentiques à cadran noir existent, ce qui est radicalement différent.Car oui, ce cadran est noir, sans aucune nuance de bleu, à l’œil et en photo, sous tous les éclairages que j’ai pu tester, naturels, artificiels, directs ou indirects.
Il est noir, tellement désespérément noir que j’ai même envisagé d’acquérir une version bleue après sa réception (j’ai des échanges écrits avec des membres de ce forum qui l’attestent).
On s’y est même mis à plusieurs pour essayer de voir du bleu mais ce fut un échec. Si tu as un protocole précis et décisif à mettre en place pour révéler une quelconque nuance de bleu existante ou ayant existé, je serai ravi de l’appliquer.Donc cette montre existe, son cadran est noir, le modèle 4520-7000 qui le porte est authentique. Je parle au présent et ne dis pas autre chose.
Qu’il ait été rose ou vert en 1969 en revanche, je n’en sais rien. Mais après avoir étayé ton propos, c’est bien ce point que tu discutes en présumant de sa couleur passée.Ta théorie sur la désaturation du cadran est intéressante. Le problème est que les pigments, sous l’action de l’oxydation et des ultra-violets ne foncent pas, ils deviennent plus clairs.
Par exemple, un cadran de submariner ou de speedmaster, noir au demeurant, deviendra chocolat/marron/brun.Ici un cadran bleu perdrait donc sa saturation pour devenir noir. D’ailleurs sur ton catalogue, est-ce qu’il est écrit qu’il est bleu ou est-ce que tu le vois bleu ? Sais-tu comment ton catalogue a été conservé depuis son impression ? Le catalogue est-il en couleurs ?
En ayant connaissance des autres cas, l’hypothèse inverse : « les cadrans noirs sont ceux qui n’ont pas subi de dégradation, les bleus sont d’anciens noirs qui ont subi une désaturation » serait même plus logique.Et peux-tu affirmer que tous les modèles sont référencés dans tes catalogues ? Toutes les montres qui après expertise s’avèrent parfaitement authentiques y figurent ? Toutes les montres que tu mets ou mettra en vente sont présentes sur un catalogue d’époque avec un descriptif et une représentation chromatique fidèle ?
As-tu tout simplement posé la question à Seiko ?
Sur les boîtes/papiers, thème que tu prends bien soin de répéter toutes les 5 lignes, tu sais bien que ce n’est pas le sujet.
D’ailleurs le possible lien entre une boîte et un cadran, sur fond de mise en cause d’un vendeur, ne se tient pas du point de vue logique.
Cela devient encore moins logique quand tu as reconnu la légitimité du cadran : le vendeur aurait bidouillé le set mais finalement pas refait le cadran, quel intérêt de parler de la boîte maintenant, ou du vendeur d’ailleurs ?On progresse…
Il faut savoir que sur les GS vintage, il y a un énorme recouvrement des combinaisons boîtes/papiers en fonction des périodes et des modèles. De mon côté, j’ai déjà vu ces accessoires sur des 44GS et des 45GS (dont des boîtiers 7000), toutes les annonces correspondantes étaient-elles frauduleuses et leurs vendeurs à brûler sur la place publique ? Difficile de l’affirmer et encore moins de le prouver.
Donc tant que nous n’aurons pas de confirmation officielle de Seiko même, tout ce qui pourra être émis sera un avis ou une opinion fondée sur des observations dont il faudra démontrer la pertinence statistique.
Bon courage.Et là encore, le fait que tu n’aies pas vu cette combinaison lors de ton année de recherche ne prouve pas son inexistence. Le fait que tu l’aies vue disponible sur une 56GS ou que tu la possèdes ne prouve rien non plus.
Sur ce point, permets-moi de faire confiance à mon vendeur, qui est établi depuis un peu plus de 3 semaines.Au-delà :
- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- Yahoo Auctions in Japan
C’est un contre-argument ; citer les annonces de GS vintage sur Yahoo Auctions JP c’est comme citer le bon coin pour une expertise Rolex
La qualité standard des annonces et des photos est très faible, les descriptions souvent sommaires. On peut avoir acheté une pépite sans même le savoir, juste le découvrir quand on la reçoit.Ou pas
Example, cette superbe 4520-7000 :
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/r180714031Quelqu’un pour me dire si la littérature est refaite ?
Pourtant dans une étude statistique exhaustive il faut la prendre en compte- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- despite examining hundreds of examples of 452x-7000’s being sold with no evidence of a genuine black dial ever existing
Là par contre il va falloir apporter des preuves, car plusieurs centaines de 4520-7000 / 4522-7000 est très improbable, même sur 3 ans, vu leur fréquence d’apparition.
- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- 1. I have examined every single example of 452x-7000’s that has been sold on Yahoo Auctions in Japan in the last 3 years, and many that have been sold directly through dealers’ websites.
2. I have examined every single Seiko catalogue and Seiko Sales newsletter that includes this reference. They first appear in the 1969 V2 catalogue, and are then featured in every catalogue up to and including 1971 V2.
3. I have spoken directly with several Japanese dealers who have been dealing in vintage Grand Seiko for decades specifically regarding the legitimate existence – or otherwise – of the black dial variant of this watch.
Donc tu es en train de nous dire qu’après tout ce travail spécifiquement dédié à ce modèle, après cette laborieuse prise de renseignements, méthodique, pendant de longues années, et même auprès de concurrents vendeurs, tu as réussi à acheter cette 4522-7000 au cadran refait ?
Il faut comprendre que sur cette montre, le plus flagrant n’est pas le cadran mais le boîtier.
Même sur une annonce Yahoo Auctions JP de seconde zone avec les photos en 200×300, la forme du brossé le long des cornes ferait mal aux yeux. Si on a déjà vu des boîtiers 7000, on ne va même pas plus loin. Le poli est atroce dans sa qualité comme dans ses formes, l’alignement est foiré, l’ensemble est un désastre.Le rasoir d’Ockham dit que tu te fous de ma gueule
A propos, tu dois savoir que l’on juge un vendeur par sa gestion des erreurs, on en fait tous mais un bon commerçant sait comment réagir face à ces situations, et aussi que l’indifférence est la pire des solutions.
- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- The crucial thing here is that it is not for me to prove a negative – something that Arnaud privately admitted was the case, and yet still is insisting it is my job to do.
La chose cruciale, c’est que tu ne peux pas le démontrer mais que tu te permets de l’affirmer…
- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- Did Seiko ever originally manufacture this watch with a black dial? No.
…par exemple.
- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- It’s a shame you don’t have the «proper» full set for this watch, because the price tag that would have been wrapped around the strap may well have had that full code on it.
C’est la montre qui m’intéresse, j’aurais la faiblesse d’avouer que je me contrefous de l’équivalent pognon qu’elle peut représenter.
- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- If anyone wants to see the full email exchange between myself and Arnaud, more than happy to forward it on to them.
Ici c’est interdit, au moins par respect : ce qui est échangé en privé doit rester privé.
- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- Is that a correct translation? Are you saying I’ve sold the watch (actually, a 4522-7000, not a 4520-7000)? Because that would be libel.
C’est une 5722 au cadran noir refait qui a été revendue, Gérald n’hésite pas à corriger sur la référence exacte du modèle si besoin.
- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- Now – let’s go speak to the guy who sold you this and see what he says. Feel free to contact me privately if you’re not prepared to name them in public.
Je n’ai rien à cacher mais je n’échangerai pas avec toi en privé, autant le faire directement ici, et également par respect pour les lecteurs de ce forum.
En revanche, comme tu jettes bien vite l’opprobre sur le vendeur de ma montre, voici ce que je te propose :
1- Tu nous fournis la référence du vendeur de ta 4522-7000, il est maintenant démontré que ce vendeur est à éviter car il a revendu au moins une montre au cadran refait (ou le signale-t-il clairement dans ses annonces ?)
2- Tu nous fournis la référence du vendeur dont tu parles ci-dessous, si tu l’affirmes tu dois être sûr de ton coup :- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- For what it’s worth, I know of one supposedly «very reputable» Tokyoite seller who is anything but.
Et, ce, pour le bien de la communauté.
Je m’engage à donner le nom de mon vendeur en conséquence.Tu as déjà fourni publiquement sur ton blog des références de vendeurs à éviter, donc dans l’espace restreint qu’est le sous-forum Seiko cela ne devrait poser aucun problème.
Deal ?Je souhaite sincèrement que l’on puisse progresser ensemble
Dans un premier temps, on peut donc conclure que quand on voit une 4520-7000 ou 4522-7000 avec un cadran noir, on ne peut pas affirmer qu’elle est illégitime.L’essentiel c’est d’apprendre en s’amusant, en restant légers, on ne joue pas sa vie et on ne parle pas de pièces à cent milles !
Hakuna matata
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À choisir sans péril, on renonce sans gloire.Allow me to address a few points raised in the above post.
« So it was to help the base clownhere for the « bitching » side of the force …
And on this point, Gerald, you’ve never ruled publicly (at least on your blog) before giving an opinion for the least decided and without explanation, right here. »Two points. The « bitching from the sidelines » wasn’t directed at you. It was directed at Arnaud.
The post on my blog regarding the « jury being out » on the black dial 452x-7000’s was made in March. Nine months ago. Am I to take it that you are complaining I didn’t write a follow-up blog post having investigated further?
« I was not talking about the manufacture of dials but said that the 4520-7000 authentic black dial exist, which is radically different. »
And I have been very clear since the outset to stress that I was referring to whether or not Seiko ever manufactured black dial variants. So possibly this has all been an argument over nothing, or, as we are about to find out, perhaps not…« Your theory on the desaturation of the dial is interesting. The problem is that the pigments, under the action of oxidation and ultra-violet do not darken, they become clearer. »
Except here it is possible to demonstrably prove that you are wrong, because we have both contemporary photographs of blue dial vintage Grand Seikos as provided in catalogues and newsletters, as well as existing examples of the same references.
« Here a blue dial would lose its saturation to become black. Besides, on your catalog, is it written that it is blue or do you see it blue? Do you know how your catalog has been preserved since it was printed? Is the catalog in color? »Examples of catalogue shots of blue dial vintage Grand Seikos are there on my website for you to see for yourself. Look at the 4522-7000 (but be quick, because I will be replacing that catalogue shot with an actual watch shot later today when I add new product to the site), the 4580-7000, the 6145-8050 as examples.
The 4522 we have discussed to death, but as you will see when I upload the actual watch shot later today, the example I have has lost almost all its saturation (as has the 4520 example that I have listed). Look at the catalogue shot of the 4580-7000. Now compare that photo (and by they way, I have other shots of this watch from other Seiko publications – they all show it being very clearly blue, which it was), with the one on Grand Seiko Japan’s website (it’s in third volume of the 10 stories series – I can’t post a link as I’ve not been a member here for more than a week yet).
Looks black doesn’t it. But actually, it isn’t. If you actually check the dial colour it does not have equal parts red, green and blue. Across the entire dial, regardless of the luminence value, there’s always more blue there. In the darkest part (between the 3 and 4 indices) is around 19:20:24 RGB, and in the lightest part (close to the 10 index), it’s 108:112:120.
Clearly the photographs of this reference taken at the time it was produced show the dial to have a lot more blue saturation than examples existing now have. And it should be stressed that prior to actually having seen the old catalogue shots, I was convinced this watch had a black dial, based on the (very) few independent photos existing that I had seen.
And yes – to address your specific question – in the catalogues they are not just photographed as being blue (the catalogues and newsletters are in colour), they are also written as being « blue », because the colour codes used for the references are blue colour codes, not black colour codes. We can validate this by checking against the colour codes for watches (King Seikos, chronographs, etc) that we know for a fact were issued with black dials.
So to sum up on this point –
1. We have contemporary photographs in official Seiko publications of watches with what are very clearly blue dials, with blue colour catalogue codes.
2. We have examples of those exact same references existing today where the blue colour has almost completely desaturated in the dial, and in photographs they absolutely can appear to be black.
3. But even when you think you are looking at a black colour on one of those references today – even on Grand Seiko’s very own website – it can be shown that in actual fact, it’s not true black.« With the knowledge of the other cases, the opposite hypothesis: « the black dials are those which have not undergone degradation, the blues are old blacks who have suffered a desaturation » would even be more logical. »
Well, yes – IF you are to accept your earlier assertion « the problem is that the pigments, under the action of oxidation and ultra-violet do not darken, they become clearer » as being true; and IF you ignore all the evidence to the contrary that is available, that might be more logical. But the facts speak for themselves – your « logical » proposition can be demonstrated to be false.
« And can you say that all models are referenced in your catalogs? All watches that after expertise prove perfectly authentic appear there? All the watches that you put on or put on sale are present on a catalog of time with a description and a faithful chromatic representation? «
As I explained to Arnaud in the email exchange we had – no. Not every single example of vintage Grand Seikos that we absolutely and categorically know to be genuine references are depicted in the catalogues or newsletters. For starters, the catalogues only started to be produced in 1967. Before that, we have to rely on the Seiko News and Seiko Sales monthly newsletters.
The publications are merely a starting point. It has to be said however, that out of 137 distinct vintage Grand Seiko variants that I have researched and am 100% confident of their authenticity, very few do not appear in the official publications. It’s actually so few that I can list them here (ignoring the Toshiba and Idemitsu commemorative models) –
Platinum « First »
4420-9990
6146-8030
6146-8040
6156-8000
6156-8001
6156-8030
6185-8000
6185-8021
6185-7000
4580-7010
5645/6-8000 grey dial
5646-8000 silver dialSo the process here is rather simple. Is a watch featured in a catalogue? If it is, then we can assume it was probably produced, and then we can go look for examples of it. If the watch is not featured in a catalogue, then we can look for evidence of it existing elsewhere. Perhaps, such as in the case of the platinum « First » or the 4580-7010, Seiko have made public pronouncements on their existence. In other cases, it’s down to a matter of looking at the examples that come up in the market or exist in collections, and evaluating their potential authenticity carefully. It’s hard to challenge the existence of, say, the 6185-8021 when you’ve seen a full set NOS example with the original sales receipt and guarantee.
The problem with the claim that Seiko actually manufactured 452x-7000’s (or any other reference for that matter) with black dials is that, (1) there is no contemporary evidence to prove that they did; and (2) that we can demonstrate – with clear objective evidence – how they might appear to come into existence.
Is it possible that they originally produced them? Yes – I have stated this before. But the onus is on YOU to prove your case. Simply owning a watch that looks like it has a black dial is not sufficient evidence to show it was manufactured with one, because we can show how such an example might come to be.
The day that you or anyone else can prove that Seiko manufactured these with black dials – either by digging up a catalogue that shows a black dial with a black colour code catalogue number, or by Seiko issuing a statement that says « yes – we made these » – I will of course be more than happy to correct my current views on this matter.
Re the box and guarantee issue – no doubt about it whatsoever. At some point someone has taken your watch, and combined it with the wrong guarantee papers and the wrong box. Possibly as a deliberate fraud, or possibly just out of ignorance.
Or are you seriously trying to claim that a watch manufactured in March 1969 by Daini was originally sold with box and papers intended for a series manufactured by Suwa that was only introduced to the market in 1971? I guess there is a really slight chance that some retailer in 1971 had a 45GS knocking around that he’d lost the box and papers for and sold it to a customer with 56GS box and papers, and they stayed together ever since. But that’s about the best you’d ever be able to claim for it. It still doesn’t make it correct though. Wrong box. Wrong papers. Stop kidding yourself.
Like I said before – if the guy who sold this set to you is absolutely insistent that the box and papers are correct, I’d be most interested to have a discussion with him on the matter. It’s almost guaranteed I will already know the guy. It’s probably just an honest mistake on his part.
For what it’s worth, right now, one of the most respected dealers in Japan is advertising on his website a « frankensteined » watch that never existed. Another very respected dealer has been swapping out correct 3180 crowns for incorrect ones for years because he didn’t realise the very earliest watches had different crowns to the later examples. Now both of those examples are perfectly innocent mistakes (I have discussed the matters with both dealers face to face and very cordially).
Yet another « highly respected » dealer has previously sold a watch with a re-done dial (he was open about it being re-done) that he claimed had been re-done by the original factory, and that no Seiko expert in Japan could tell the difference between it and the original print – that turned out to be a complete and deliberate lie.
So sometimes, these guys – like everyone – make honest mistakes. Sometimes, unfortunately, perhaps there examples of dealers being slightly more economical with the truth.
« So you are telling us that after all this work specifically dedicated to this model, after this laborious, methodical, information gathering for many years, and even with sales competitors, you have managed to buy this 4522-7000 the dial redone? »
Err no, because you’re not getting those events in the correct order. I have been totally open and honest about purchasing errors I have made in the past. That particular watch was purchased well over a year ago. The detailed research into historic sales and the catalogues/newsletters came subsequently. I did the research (and it is of course ongoing) precisely because I doubted the authenticity of some of the pieces I’d purchased once I had them in my hand.
« It is a 5722 black dial redone that has been resold, Gerald does not hesitate to correct on the exact reference of the model if necessary. »I have never – not even privately – advertised any of these pieces for sale***. Even after making numerous blog posts and forum posts warning people off these things, a guy from Finland approached me asking if he could buy one from me. He knew the story behind them. I knew the story behind them. We discussed it. I did my best to steer him away from the thing, but he was clearly very keen to get one.
I gave him the choice of the three I had, he picked one. I sold it to him for half what I paid for it. He loves the watch.
You have a problem with that? You think I should have told him « I refuse to sell it to you. You must go and buy it from the guy selling them in Japan for twice the price ».
I still have the other two. If anyone wants them at half the price I paid for them, they’re more than welcome, but frankly I’d rather people bought genuine watches – from any source – than these things.
« I have nothing to hide but I will not trade with you in private, as much do it directly here, and also out of respect for the readers of this forum.
On the other hand, as you quickly throw the shame on the seller of my watch, here is what I propose to you:
1- You give us the reference of the seller of your 4522-7000, it is now shown that this seller is to avoid because he resold at least one watch on the redone dial (or does he clearly indicate it in his ads?)
2- You provide us the reference of the seller of which you speak below, if you affirm it you must be sure your shot: »I will give you 1, but not 2. The seller of my 4522-7000 I have already given on another forum as one to avoid – it’s trading_co_jp.
Kind regards,
Gerald.
***Correction – I’ve gone back through earlier blog posts to double check this, and yes – I did actually in one blog post say people could buy them from me if they wanted, but at a substantial discount to what I paid for them.
Just to close this once and for all, please…
This is a screenshot of one of the images on your Flickr page of the watch in question.
Note the colour picker on the dial. Note the RGB values.
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Moi je pense que c’est une série speciale hodinkee oubliée au fond des tiroirs
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L’heure, c’est l’heure ; avant l’heure, c’est pas l’heure ; après l’heure, c’est plus l’heure.That’s very interesting, thanks for addressing those points Gerald.
The link you mentionned: https://www.grand-seiko.jp/10stories/vol3/1/
The point you mentionned about the catalog codes is very interesting and I’d love to know more about it.
So I’ve looked at your references for dark dials (blue, grey, green and so on) and this is what I could understand (sorry if you already explained it somewhere else, I didn’t see it addressed before):
Brown dials: ends with 6
Green dials: ends with 5 or 7
Blue sunburst dials: ends with 4 (4580 and 56GS), 5 (56GS) or 7 (61GS)
Blue dials: ends with 2 (61GS),
Dark blue dials: ends with 0 (56GS), 4 (56GS and 61GS)
Blue « linen » dials: ends with 5 (56GS)We can do the other way around:
56GS:
Blue textured (linen or sunburst) dial: ends with 5
Dark blue dial: ends with 0 or 461GS:
Blue dial: ends with 2
Dark blue dial: ends with 4
Blue sunburst dial: ends with 7Now for the 45GS, we only have the 4580-7000 and the 452x-7000. 4580 ends with 4 (sunburst?), 452x ends with 1.
So we could argue that Daini and Suwa probably don’t use the same color codes. Sadly, that’s (to my knowledge) the only dark dialed GSs Daini has ever made.
So I looked at the 1974 catalog scan I have, and if we search for dark dails produced by Daini, we can see a lot of different color codes used
This one looks black, code ends with 1
This one looks lighter. Black? Blue? Grey? Bad scan quality? Bad picture quality? Who knows? Code ends with 1
Two differents shades of blue, one with a code ending with 0, the other with 1
So, here’s my question:
Am I on to something or am I going in a totally wrong direction?
Is there any certain information on those catalog codes? Did Daini and Suwa use the same codes? Because it can get pretty messy when we discuss dial references, catalog references and so on.You mentionned KS and chronographs. As I only have the ’74 scan, there’s only 56KSs there and their codes match what I said above. We also se a reference ending with 2, which looks like a black dial. There’s a Bellmatic further in the catalogue with a code ending with 2, but it’s a grey sunburst dial. Same thing when we look at the chronos, all the dark grey and black dials end with 2. But they’re all made in Suwa. The only Daini made dark dials I’ve found in this catalogue is for the 7016 chronos, and we can see the black dial on the left has a code ending with 2, the other two blue dials ending with 4 (that’s a 7015-8000 and we can easily find pictures of the black dial).
So maybe I didn’t take enough time to look, maybe there’s more information in the other catalogues I don’t have, but it seems to me that the only Daini watches which code ends with 1 are the ones mentionned above, which seems to be black and blue…
I’m not trying to prove anything right or wrong, I’m just trying to understand how those codes work, as you said there are blue dial codes and black dial codes and that’s a point I never took time to analyse. So, do you have more information on Daini color codes? Is there any other catalogue codes for Daini watches ending with 1?
Everytime I try to decypher Seiko codes and find a logic in there, it always end the same way…
@Gerald:
« »Two differents shades of blue, one with a code ending with 0, the other with 1 »But you seem to have missed that the one in the middle in white also ends with a 0, so we can immediately deduce that you can’t just go off the last number, as we are about to find out when we do this more comprehensively. »
Most of the white dials end with 0, wether we’re talking about GS or not, textured/sunburst/plain white dials, so the ladie’s blue dial with a code ending in 0 would be the exception. Anyways it’s a mess and I’m not sure there’s a definitive logic behind those codes…
- lol67 a écrit:
- Bonjour
Cela a l’air intéressant.
Dommage que je ne parle pas l’anglais.
En gros Gerald parlait de code couleur pour les cadrans noirs ou bleus, j’ai essayé de voir s’il y avait une logique claire dans les codes donnés dans les catalogues mais pour faire simple, c’est un peu le bordel et il n’y a pas une vraie logique fiable à 100%. Comme souvent, il y a les grandes lignes mais il y a aussi plein d’exceptions. J’ai envie de dire que les cadrans bleus ont des ref catalogue qui finissent le plus souvent par 4 et 5, et les cadrans noirs finissent le plus souvent par 1 et 2, mais il y a plein de contrexemples donc bon…
Just to jump to your second to last photo…
« Two differents shades of blue, one with a code ending with 0, the other with 1 »
But you seem to have missed that the one in the middle in white also ends with a 0, so we can immediately deduce that you can’t just go off the last number, as we are about to find out when we do this more comprehensively.
The full list of the final three digits of the catalogue number where a vintage GS has a blue dial is as follows –
014
021
024
035
042 <<<
054
064
065Clearly that’s a lot of different codes. But the question should be, can we find any instances of undisputed black-dial watches that use any of the above codes, and if so, is it possible that the Grand Seiko in question is truly a black dial?
Let’s go through the 1974 volume 1 catalogue. The following is the list of colour codes for all watches that have black dials (I’m sticking with men’s only – the women’s watches clearly have a different code structure)
012
022
031
032
041
042 <<<
052
062
082
084
112
122
132
712So – there is an anomaly there. Code 042 is used for the Grand Seiko 614x-8020 cushion case blue dial reference, and also for the 70SPS 042 Speedtimer. But there is no dispute over the colour of the Grand Seiko.
Crucially, we have not found an example of a black dial watch with the code 021, which is what is used for the 452x-7000.
Yes – this is just going off a single catalogue, but it’s a start. The thing is, from my perspective it’s where my interest ends, because I’m only really interested in vintage Grand Seiko, and as I hope everyone will accept now given the screenshot I posted earlier, there were no references of those made with black dials. Unless someone can prove otherwise of course, but I won’t be holding my breath.
(With specific reference to 70SPS 024, there is absolutely no question – that reference has a blue dial. I have the original catalogue itself, not a scan. Yes, at first glance it looks like it could be black, but when you look carefully near the edge of the dial close to the sunburst, it’s very obviously blue).
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Thanks. Ok so almost no logic whatsoever, wether it’s only GS or not, Suwa or Daini…
Messy as usual with this kind of things…
- FraDiavolo a écrit:
- Pardon pour un quasi-hors sujet, mais j’aurais juste une question:
Chez GS, quels modèles ont proposé une Phase de Lune?Parce que j’ai attrapé récemment une Seiko PDL, mais ce n’est pas une « GS », c’est le modèle Snr011 qui a servi à introduire le Spring Drive, et tiré à 200 ex.
Celle-ci:
j’ai eu la meme ….la n°1
__________________________________
ZENITH El Primero 36 000 – ROLEX submariner 116610 LN GMT II 16710 SD 16600 – SEIKO Marine Master 300 – PADI – SKX 009J – 6105 8010 – 6105 8000 – IWC Ingénieur – Vostok amphibian bleu – Citizen aqualand 200m -NY 2300 pespi- Thegrandseikoguy a écrit:
- Your watch is a blue dial 4520-7000. Catalogue reference 45GSC 021. The 021 is the colour code for the dark blue dial. It’s a shame you don’t have the « proper » full set for this watch, because the price tag that would have been wrapped around the strap may well have had that full code on it.
Salut Gérald,
J’ai vérifié ce point car contrairement à ce que tu écris, l’étiquette du prix était aussi présente sur le bracelet (tout ce qui existe n’a pas été pris en photo, ce n’est pas une annonce…).
Deuxième affirmation incorrecte : cette étiquette ne comporte aucun code, ni au recto ni au verso, juste « Seiko GS » et le prix.
Encore une fois je suis navré de relire tes accusations (« proper full set« ) sans plus de contexte.En revanche, une autre étiquette indique le numéro de référence, et son motif ne correspond pas exactement à celui de ton catalogue.
Au dos de cette deuxième étiquette est renseigné le numéro de boîtier de la montre.À l’occasion, je reviendrai sur le reste de tes interventions, il y a matière.
A+__________________________________
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