C’est Décidé ! Ma prochaine montre sera une Submariner !!!

[CL26]

martiniracing a écrit:

CL26 a écrit:

ericbaum a écrit:

Rolex Sub, une montre fiable et indestructible qui peut enterrer son proprio de par sa tenue dans le temps.

My 2 cents suite à expérience personnelle.

ERIC

c’est un argument qui fait mouche ( avec celui de la décote faible ) ça effectivement par contre je sais que le risque zéro n’existe pas et cela avec n’importe quel montre ou produit .

seulement il faut compté combien de temps en moyenne avant d’avoir des petits soucies avec une Rolex et de l’envoyer en réparation ? 10, 20 ou 30 ans ? en ce basant sur une personne pour laquelle c’est son unique montre et qui la porte tout les jours bien sur !
il y a des statistiques a ce sujet ou de façon général pour une montre automatique ?

Mon beau père en a porté une tous les jours pendant presque 40 ans de 1967 à 2006, Il n’a fait que 2 révisions entre, malgré beaucoup de plongées sous marine
Après ça ne veut rien dire car mon grand père a aussi une montre (Suisse) sans grande marque (je ne connais pas la marque car le cadran a été changé), il l’a depuis les années 60, je l’ai toujours vu avec et aucune révision et aucune panne…

merci de me faire partagé cette petite expérience ( enfin celle de ton grand père ) j’aime bien les expériences vécu , ça m’aide un petit peu dans mon choix

@ tous les autres : merci de votre soutient , je sait que ça peu paraitre un peu barbant ( j’ai un peu peur de ça mais c’est pas le but du topic ) mais je vais essayer de ne pas poser trop de questions idiotes par la suite et comprenez bien que ce topic est juste la pour vous faire ressentir les choses tel que je les voies , mais aussi pour en apprendre un peu plus sur les montres et mon futur achat ainsi que votre vécu avec certaines d’entre elle ( après je sais bien que sur internet c’est pas toujours facile et que parfois ça ne ce passe pas toujours vraiment comme on aurai imaginé …)

mais petit HS quand même :

ce soir je suis allez au ciné avec les potes et j’ai vu de dernier Tony Scott , l’attaque du Metro 123 .

c’est un bon film d’action avec un très bon scénario et une mise en scène efficace, mais pourquoi je vous en parle parce que dans le film on y voie "vraiment très bien" deux très belle montre !

une Jaeger Lecoultre porté par le maire de New york ( jouer par James Gandolfini )

il me semble que c’est une Master Control comme celle ci ( a vérifier )

et l’autre porté par le terroriste jouer par John Travolta et deviné quoi ^^ c’est une Breitling modèle Colt

celle ci il me semble :

voilà c’est juste pour info si vous avez de voir de jolie montre et un bon film, pour ma part ces deux modèles ne m’intéresse pas du tout

++

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Seamaster Forever…

[didier31]

Mnementh et cl26,

moi aussi j’ai le sens de l’humour, et je trouve vos posts amusants, mais certains pourraient faire des racourcis rapides :
lors des tests effectués pas la nasa pour équiper de montres les équipages, de grandes marques ont éé achetées anonymement, chez des revendeurs us, dont une rolex :

"Speedmasters @ NASA
First Speedmasters in Space : Mercury Program
The Speedmaster was first flight tested in space by Walter Schirra aboard Sigma 7, October 1962, it was not an official choice from NASA but Schirra’s personnal choice (watch ref number CK2998 : the second model of Speedmaster)

The watch works perfectly and was used as backup to the on-board clock. On-board timing devices in the Mercury capsule were internal to the spacecraft and wristwatches had not undergone specific testing, as the astronaut never left the protected environment of the spacecraft.

On the last Mercury Mission, Gordon Cooper (watch ref number CK2998) wore both the Omega chronograph and a Bulova Accutron Astronaut in order to compare the accuracy of the manually-wound Omega to the then new electronic Bulova. The Omega was used to time the firing sequence of the retro rockets for re-entry.

Walter Schirra in Mercury capsule Sigma 7 3 October 1962
with the Gemini and Apollo programs, astronauts would also need wrist timing devices to help them with EVA activities, such as spacewalks, photographic timing exposures, and timing fuel cell purges. Such a watch should be able to operate in the vacuum of space where there exists wide variances in temperature and pressure.

Gemini Program
In 1962, NASA decided to equip the astronauts of its future Gemini programm with a highly accurate, legible, resistant and reliable wrist chronograph.

Donald K. Slayton, head of the flight Crew Operations , took action to select the chronographs :
For the purpose of comparison tests, NASA purchased chronographs different brands from Corrigan’s, a large retailer in Houston, Texas the following watches where purchased : Elgin, Benrus, Hamilton, Mido, Piccard, Omega, Bulova, Rolex, Longine and Gruen. Of theses only 3 where selected for the comparative evaluation testing :

Longines, Omega and Rolex (Omega movement : Omega 321 , Rolex movement : Valjoux 72 , Longines : Longines 13 ZN)
Edward White during first US EVA : Gemini IV
9 June 1965
1965 first qualification program :
Model tested : probably 105.012 no documents found for the moment to firmly state this , but for sure a Speedmaster equiped with Omega 321 caliber
High temperature: 48 hours at 71º C followed by 30 minutes at 93º C. This under a pressure of 0,35atm and relative humidity not over 15%.
Low temperature: Four hours at -18º C.
Temperature-pressure: 0,000001atm and temperature raised to 71º C. Temperature then lowered to -18º C in 45 minutes and again raised to 71º C in 45 minutes. This cycle was repeated fifteen times.
Relative humidity: 240 hours in relatuve humidity of at least 95% and at temperatures varying between 20º C and 71º C. The steam had a pH value of between 6,5 and 7,5.
Oxygen atmosphere: Exposure to 100% oxygen atmosphere at a pressure of 0,35atm and a temperature of 71º C for 48 hours.
Shock: Six 11 millisecond shocks of 40g each in six different directions.
Acceleration: Linear acceleration from 1g to 7,25g within 333 seconds.
Decompression: 90 minutes in a vaccum of 0 10-6 atm and a temperature of 71º C and 30 minutes in the same vaccum but at a temperature of 93ºC.
High pressure: exposure to 1,6atm for one hour.
Vibration: Three cycles of 30 minutes (lateral, horizontal and vertical), the frequency varying from 5 to 2000cps and back to 5cps in 15 minutes. Average acceleration per impulse 8,8g.
Acoustic noise: 130dB over a frequency range from 40 to 10000Hz for 30 minutes

Results of the tests :
Omega Speedmaster : gained 21 minutes during decompression test and lost 15 minutes during the acceleration test , the luminescence of the dial was lost during the test

Rolex Daytona : stopped running on two occasions during the relative humidity test and during the high pressure test when the sweep second hand wraped and press against the other hands

Longine Wittnauer : Crystal warped and disengaged during the high pressure test , same fault occured during the decompression test

Final conclusion : the Omega chronograph performmed satisfactorily

In 1965, NASA chose the Omega Speedmaster Professional as the official chronograph for the space program.
With the first Gemini flight (GT3) with astronauts Grissom and Young, the Speedmaster Professional became part of the standard equipment issued to the astronauts. The watch was worn on the outside of the pressure suit with the use of a large black velcro band.

The Speedmaster was worn during the first walk in space by an American, Edward White, in 1965. Two speedmasters were worn by each Gemini astronaut one set on mission time , the other one on GMT or Huston time.
A Speedmaster during NASA Qualification
A speedmaster qualified for space flight

1967 : Apollo Program
Due to its performance, reliability and success with the Gemini programm the Speedmaster Professional was selected again as the official chronograph by NASA for project Apollo.

Each astronaut wore one chronograph for spaceflight as a standard issue. Most, however, wore two during spaceflight. some astronauts have used other watches as backup only one speedmaster was issued to the astonauts.

This information concerning NASA stock is confirmed by the document of 1972 stating on watch stock :"NASA has purchased a total of 97 Chronographs. Theses chronographs were used on the manned space missions beginning with Gemini III. Of the 97 watches, 17 could no longer be used or had been lost. In 1972, there where an inventory of 20 unused units at the flight center . The remaining 60 units had already been used or had undergone repairs to bring them up to specification."

Conclusion :
The first watch worn on the moon was a Speedmaster 145.012 fitted with the Omega 321 caliber (Aldrin’s watch)

There was at least one other watch brand worn on the moon : the David Scott’s Waltham (Apollo XV)

The 3 different types of Speedmaster known to have been worn on the moon are the 105.003, 105.012 and 145.012 all theses models are fitted with the Omega 321 caliber

Occording to Omega informations no other types of Speedmaster have ever been on the moon , excluding the theory of a Speedmaster powered by the caliber 861 worn on the moon (at least as an official watch)

There is no evidence of any Speedmaster 145.022 fitted with caliber 861 ever worn on the moon

Bulova vs Omega
The use of Swiss chronographs in the American space program met with political resistance by a number of American watch makers, specifically the Bulova Watch Company. In the early days of the space program, Bulova did not make a chronograph, but makes a considerable pressure on NASA to use Bulova products. There were various meetings with NASA officials in order to promote the use of their products.

The conclusion of the Apollo program was nearing with Apollo 17 scheduled for December 1972. As this date approached, the Bulova Watch Company lbecame increasingly concerned that its products be used for this last manned lunar mission. General Bradley (President of Bulova) having determined that it would be impossible to overturn the support for Omega, switched strategy of obtaining the highest polical support in the US governement.

The wqtch issue was taken up to the congress which asked why the space program, undertaken by the nation, did not use a domestically produced watch

Thus it was decided by the Administrator on NASA, James Fletcher, that if a suitable Bulova chronograph could be found, it would be used on the last Apollo mission. Bulova had insisted that chronographs chosen by NASA follow the policy of the "buy American" regulations estalished by the Senate.

Bulova "Atronaut"
Second qualification program

In August of 1972, sixteen companies were notified by NASA that the Manned Spacecraft Center (MSC) planned to establish a Qualified Product List for possible future procurement of astronaut watches.

This list included: Breitling, the Bulova , Elmore, Elgin, Forbes, Girard-Perregaux, Gruen, Hamilton, Heuer, LeJour, Longines-Wittnauer, Omega, Rolex, Seiko and Zodiac.

Both Bulova and Omega were eager to comply with the "Buy American Act" which meant 51 precent of the products must be made or manufactured in the United States.

In order to comply with this act, Omega had the stainless steel cases for the Speedmaster Professional manufactured in Luddington, Michigan by the Starr Watch Case Company. The crystals were shipped from Switzerland to the Starr Watch Company where they were installed. The completed case and crystal were then shipped to the Hamilton Watch Company in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, for inspection and testing. The case and crystals were then shipped to Switzerland where the movements were installed and the entire watch was subjected to final inspection and environmental testing.

The Bulova Watch Company submitted 16 chronographs for testing at this time. It was later learned that these watches were manufactured in Switzerland and that Bulova had purchased these chronographs through their subsidiary in Switzerland, Universal Geneve. The 16 chronographs were disassembled by Bulova in their research laboratory and a new crystal, a new machine case, specifically manufactured pin, a new crown and stem, a new face and dials and certain gaskets, washers and screws were replaced on each watch. The original movements and the back of each watch were retained.

When confronted with the fact that these watches were, in actuality, Swiss chronographs, Bulova stated that they had invested $23,000 of research and development funds in developing and tooling the process. Thus, by utilizing these R&D costs, the watches were found to qualify under the "Buy American Act."

Omega Speedmaster with Velcro Strap
1972 qualification tests :
Omega Model tested : 145.022 according Omega
1. Vacuum testing
The chronograph shall be subjected to a vacuum of 1×10-6 Torr or better for a total of 72 hours. During the first 10 hours of testing the temperature of the items shall be increased to 160 (+/-10) degrees F. The temperature shall then be returned to 78 (+/-10) degrees F for the remainder of the test.
2. Oxygen Atmosphere/Temperature Test
The test items shall be placed in atmosphere of 95 +/-5 percent oxygen at a pressure of 5+/-0.1 psia and a temperature of 155 +/-5 degrees F for 72 hours. Gas samples extracted from the chamber area shall be analyzed for organic and CO content per test number 6 of D-NA-0002.
3. Low Temperature
The test items shall be lowered to 0 +/- 5 degrees F. This temperature shall be maintained for 10 +/-0.5 hours. The test items shall be allowed to return to ambient before functional testing.
4. Acceleration
The test items shall be subjected to 20’s +/- 2 g’s in each direction of the three (3) perpendicular axes.
5. Random Vibration
The test items shall be installed in a fixture and submitted to 7.8 g’s RMS for 5 +/-0.1 minutes, as defined in figure 2 in each of 3 axes. The test fixture with the test items shall then be submitted to 3.2 g’s for 12 +/-0.1 minutes as defined in figure 1, in each of the 3 axes [Eds. Note: Figures not provided].
6. EMI Test
The test items shall be subjected to all applicable requirements of Mil-STD-461A, if an electromechanical movement is employed.
7. Humidity Testing
The test items shall be submitted to a humidity test per MIL-STD-810B, Method 507, Procedure I, except minimum temperature shall be 68 deg F and maximum temperature shall be 120 deg F.

Results of the tests :
During humidity test the bulova watch stopped three times, and stopped again during the acceleration test. According to the criteria, it must be conclued that the Bulova chronograph is not appropriate for the Apollo missions.

Omega Speedmaster
during Qualification tests

1978 qualification tests :
The topic of astronaut timepieces was quiet for several years until 1976 when Bulova became interested in supplying time pieces for the Space Shuttle missions.

Once again, NASA initiated a competetive solicitation. A new deadline was extended several times so Bulova could participate.

In September 1978, astronaut chronograph watches wishing to be considered for the space shuttle program underwent yet another round of prescribed space flight environmental testing.

This included:

Vacuum
Low temperature
Pressure
Vibration
Acceleration
Salt-fog
Humidity
Shock testing

The test where acheived by two independant laboratories : one in Switzerland : the Neuchatel Observatory and the LSRH and one in the US : : Approved test laboratories of Chatsworth in California

Omega submit 3 different models of watches for thoses tests : the Speedmaster Professional (cal 861) the Speedmaster "125" (cal 1041) and the Speedsonic (cal tuning fork 1255)

The technical evaluation team determined that, of the chronographs submitted by Bulova for space flight environmental testing, no single watch was exposed to all environmental tests. Also, one watch failed in salt-fog testing and all 3 watches exposed to vacuum testing failed. Accordingly, the Bulova chronographs were determined to be in non-compliance with the specified environmental requirements.

Once again, the Omega Speedmaster professional chronograph was superior to the other chronographs tested. The Speedmaster Professional met all environmental requirements, had the highest technical score, and was offered at the lowest price. Therefore, the Omega was accepted for procurement. The watch was offered to NASA at the cost of $0.01 per watch. NASA bought a serie of 56 watches after thoses tests

In April 1981, STS-1, the first shuttle mission, was launched with Commander John Young wearing the Speedmaster Professional.

Now that the shuttle flights have become operational, there are no longer requirements by NASA for specific watches to be worn during shuttle missions. With the exception of extravehicular activity, all astronauts are confined within the pressurized environment of the shuttle. Nonetheless, the Speedmaster continues to be used by many of the shuttle astronauts.

In 1989, with the Soviet Union’s improved attitude toward the West, the Soviet Union selected Omega as the watch supplied to all cosmonauts.
The 3 models of Speedmasters

presented to NASA for the 1978 tests
Speedmaster Professional
Speedmaster "125"

Speedmaster "Speedsonic" "

il est à noter que les russes omme les américains ont équipés leurs astronautes d’oméga speedmaster, comme par hasard……

voilà je pense que ce post informera ceux qui avaient encore des doutes sur la question de la qualité des omégas et rassurera les autres.

amicalement

didier

[ericbaum]

Une Speed tient le coup pour les missions de la NASA mais n’a pas tenu le coup à mon poignet pour ma vie de tous les jours … d’où mon passage (sans aucun regret) vers Rolex.

Omega Speed, une superbe montre que j’adore et adorerai toujours mais trop délicate pour moi.

Rolex Sub, une montre fiable et indestructible qui peut enterrer son proprio de par sa tenue dans le temps.

My 2 cents suite à expérience personnelle.

ERIC

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_________________
Un tu l’auras peut-être vaut mieux que deux tu les as plus !

[Thelemys]

Maintenant, il faudra m’expliquer pourquoi prendre une montre chrono pour faire les tests (chez Rolex comme chez Omega) alors que le mouvement est plus compliqué qu’une 3 aiguilles…

Moins de complication n’est pas synonyme de moins de risques?

Une bonne Sub, Seamaster ou Explorer n’étaient-elles pas plus indiquées?

[Invité]

Thelemys a écrit:

Maintenant, il faudra m’expliquer pourquoi prendre une montre chrono pour faire les tests (chez Rolex comme chez Omega) alors que le mouvement est plus compliqué qu’une 3 aiguilles…

Moins de complication n’est pas synonyme de moins de risques?

Une bonne Sub, Seamaster ou Explorer n’étaient-elles pas plus indiquées?

Ben, c’était la demande des astronautes… de disposer d’un chronographe.

C’était un petit plaisir à leur faire

[Invité]

Mnementh a écrit:

Thelemys a écrit:

Maintenant, il faudra m’expliquer pourquoi prendre une montre chrono pour faire les tests (chez Rolex comme chez Omega) alors que le mouvement est plus compliqué qu’une 3 aiguilles…

Moins de complication n’est pas synonyme de moins de risques?

Une bonne Sub, Seamaster ou Explorer n’étaient-elles pas plus indiquées?

Ben, c’était la demande des astronautes… de disposer d’un chronographe.

C’était un petit plaisir à leur faire

il parait même que la complication chronographe aurait servi dans le cadre de la mission Apollo 13… Après, il y a pas mal de photos d’astronautes avec des GMT-master au poignet…..

[tictactoc31]

En parcourant rapidement ce texte, 2 passages me laissent perplexe …

didier31 a écrit:

Longines, Omega and Rolex (Omega movement : Omega 321 , Rolex movement : Valjoux 72 , Longines : Longines 13 ZN)

didier

J’avoue être à des années lumière niveau historique de la manufacture, mais je trouve étonnant qu’un mouvement Valjoux soit monté dans une Rolex …

didier31 a écrit:

Once again, the Omega Speedmaster professional chronograph was superior to the other chronographs tested. The Speedmaster Professional met all environmental requirements, had the highest technical score, and was offered at the lowest price. Therefore, the Omega was accepted for procurement. The watch was offered to NASA at the cost of $0.01 per watch. NASA bought a serie of 56 watches after thoses tests

didier

Je suppose que les Rolex étaient également offertes …

didier31 a écrit:

il est à noter que les russes omme les américains ont équipés leurs astronautes d’oméga speedmaster, comme par hasard……

voilà je pense que ce post informera ceux qui avaient encore des doutes sur la question de la qualité des omégas et rassurera les autres.

amicalement

didier

N’ayant pas l’intention d’aller sur la Lune de ci-tôt , et au vu de tous les avis que j’ai pu lire sur le sujet, je serai encore dans l’incapacité, à tarif équivalent, d’acheter une Omega plutôt qu’une Rolex.

L’image de fiabilité des Rolex est, à mon avis, bien supérieure à celle d’Omega. Pour moi, c’est plutôt Omega qui a tout à prouver dans ce domaine.

[Invité]

tictactoc31 a écrit:

J’avoue être à des années lumière niveau historique de la manufacture, mais je trouve étonnant qu’un mouvement Valjoux soit monté dans une Rolex …

Si.

[Gem4579]

Intéressant didier31.

Il n’y a pas vraiment de raison de remettre en cause ce rapport.

Bon maintenant, c’était il y a un paquet de temps, ces comparaisons ne tiennent plus forcément aujourd’hui, puisque les montres en questions n’ont plus que le nom de pareil par rapport à celles de l’époque…

Force est de constater que Omega et Rolex ont bien su tous les deux exploiter les "exploits" auxquels leurs montres ont participé…

TicTacToc : toutes les Dayto étaient montées en Valjoux jusqu’au modèles Zenith apparus fin 80 je crois.

[Fokker III]

tictactoc31 a écrit:

au vu de tous les avis que j’ai pu lire sur le sujet, je serai encore dans l’incapacité, à tarif équivalent, d’acheter une Omega plutôt qu’une Rolex.

Ben, je les ai encore jamais vu à tarifs équivalents…
(Oméga a pas encore assez augmenté son chrono !)

Sinon, pareil !

_________________

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Faire face !___LE__IL__Ω SSR Master__First and Only Official Goudizes Hunter __Seiko One of the Nine__Seiko One of the Thirty

[did]

Citation :

Une Speed tient le coup pour les missions de la NASA mais n’a pas tenu le coup à mon poignet pour ma vie de tous les jours … d’où mon passage (sans aucun regret) vers Rolex.

Oups..tu dois avoir une vie bien trépidante..
did

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_________________

Don’t let your dreams be dreams……

[tictactoc31]

Colonia a écrit:

tictactoc31 a écrit:

J’avoue être à des années lumière niveau historique de la manufacture, mais je trouve étonnant qu’un mouvement Valjoux soit monté dans une Rolex …

Si.

Merci

Gem4579 a écrit:

Intéressant didier31.

TicTacToc : toutes les Dayto étaient montées en Valjoux jusqu’au modèles Zenith apparus fin 80 je crois.

Et merci aussi

[CL26]

ericbaum a écrit:

Rolex Sub, une montre fiable et indestructible qui peut enterrer son proprio de par sa tenue dans le temps.

My 2 cents suite à expérience personnelle.

ERIC

c’est un argument qui fait mouche ( avec celui de la décote faible ) ça effectivement par contre je sais que le risque zéro n’existe pas et cela avec n’importe quel montre ou produit .

seulement il faut compté combien de temps en moyenne avant d’avoir des petits soucies avec une Rolex et de l’envoyer en réparation ? 10, 20 ou 30 ans ? en ce basant sur une personne pour laquelle c’est son unique montre et qui la porte tout les jours bien sur !
il y a des statistiques a ce sujet ou de façon général pour une montre automatique ?

_________________

_________________

Seamaster Forever…

[rawl1973]

Donc ce sera 1 Sub…….

T’en es persuadé comment ? …de persuadé ? de super persuadé ?????

Quoi que Oméga…..

Je plaisante , j’ en suis persuadé , de super persuadé…..

Fais toi plaisir c’est le plus important .

Cordialement.

RAWL.

[Invité]

18 pages et 1000 euro de placés…chouette encore 54 pages ..il a le temps de changé d avis.

[Auteur]

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